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 Post subject: Changes to Second Attack and Third Attack
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:05:24pm 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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These skills have been reduced in damage effectiveness in an attempt to
better balance damage from warriors in the game. Damage incurred by a warrior
should intentionally be less than that of a mage since there is no cost for
performing the skill. See the help for full details. Additionally the
efficacy of +damage from modifiers has been reduced a bit which places a
stronger emphasis on natural ability.

Cheers, Blobbie.


After the whole day of experimenting, testing, checking damage and qualities on 5 of my chars dependant on combat skills and that got some of those skills. I must say it did tune down warriors like you pointed out and what your goal intended to do, but...

It seriously weaked halfbreed classes with minor on a combat based class. Either cleric/bk, mage/paladin, any class and minor warrior-like class. They didnt hit hard before and now hit a lot less hard. One cause they get penalized for been a minor, second now get penalized for this new changes and third most chars created and races didnt even have good damage and since they dualclass they can focus on damage or mana but a combination. They are harder to play and level than pure classes and i see em now harder but not stronger.

If this was implemented to slow down pure troll warriors I dont see it as a solution viable for the rest of the classes that were affected. Sure it did tune down pure warrior trolls but now i would prefer to use my pure troll to play cause he hits pulverize than my cleric/bk who massacres or my mage/paladin who hits extremly hard. Ok the last 2 got spells and other skills but vs mobs that got tons of attacks and lot of damroll and i see em hitting just the same and us player weakened. I prefer hps and more damage over neat spells/skills combination. or a pure mage to wipe the floor with soul strikes.

If pure warrior was the problem why not decrease chance of the attacks firing or bonus quality to combat skills, or cost of movement for each round of fight. Or something else but not decrease of damage for us all.

I didnt mind a big troll doin lotsa damage in pvp, I can take the pain if other people cant and whine about it go make your own warrior. Did a mage whine or complain about this? cause if someone did .I say mages wipe the floor with warriors even if they do 300 damage a round or got 2500hps, if u dont know how to use mages quit the class. But oh well mages are back to be the best class again why should i try to defend yall anyway.

My biggest concern is that since we all hit less hard some big mobs do not and that is dangerous and less fun since we all know where to hunt and exp and quest. Now we risking all over again to know what we can kill and what we cant.

And I know changes are a necesity to balance mud and stuff but usually tune downs to balance it just dont make people happy neither is the solution. I think tune ups or slight twitches better. Since you already have a class that its ok why mess it up with a tune down that will cause ripples and further problems. I did like to pulverize and gelatinize, i didnt know how much hp damage i did but it looked way better just for looks than oblits and annihilates. Call me old fashion but i do like to smash the crap outta mobs hittin with good damage,good weapon on a good char. And seeing now that i cant see him hit that hard again saddens me. Maybe its not such a big change for primary class or pure class warriors bu believe me, test it with your halfbreeds with minor on combat and ull know why I said all this.

Just my opinion


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:11:55am 
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:12:10pm
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Third attack takes a lot of pracs to get. If the dmg is effectively reduced by 1/3 how about reducing the required pracs by the same.

A warrior has to get sweep, (usually) pierce, third, and draw for a skill that does 2/3 the dmg of combat, which is given to new chars for free these days.

Haven't tested like Torak but I can't say i'm a fan of this "enhancenement" in the least.


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 Post subject: more testing and thinking
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:32:32pm 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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Kept playing and testing stuff out and found out this:

Damage modifiers or whatever they called were reduced by 33% thats the "bit" they went down. Now if i understand correctly that means if i get damroll eq and damage weapon on my count it wont be the real count.

For example i got 30damroll on my warrior first 3 attacks (or had)
24 from the eq i use and 6 from the weapon enchanted. Now with this changes that damroll is reduced to 20 (-33%) but also my second attack has -15% and my third -35%. That means it added up and left my third doin massacres or extremly hards while it was doin annihilates/obliterates before changes. My second does annihilates/oblits instead of oblits/pulverize.


Then me testing it on a mage/paladin char with 3 attacks im hittin. Annihilate,massacre or extremly hard and hard / very hard. In the order of primary,second attack and dual wield.

This new changes reduced the will to try variety of chars and combination of minor classes for combat in my opinion since those classes use combo equips for mana,damroll,etc and now doin such low damage they are more helpless than before. Soul strike you mentioned might be too powerful, then those classes will become too weak to play.

Who will want to get combat skills that dont do enough damage unless you are a pure warrior and have bonus 15% and pure damroll eq.. That class is just fine compared to the rest. Now more than ever folks are sitting ducks waiting to be smashed.

I see the logic behind this changes and i understand it but i dont see the practical application of it. Or how it benefited the mud or its players in the short or long term. For me is the most discouraging change since merge started. And I strongly disagree with it. I usually protest or support the immortal staff changes after discussing it and seeing the final goal. But this punishment to players with this latest change I dont see a way to agree with em. I wish things were set back as they were before this change. cause its not benefiting anyone nor gameplay. Made it less fun. Seeing my power of attacks goin down as i hit each round is silly. Muds arent reality, they are not meant to follow the physical rules of the world, I dont understand why the concept to try to mirror it. If i got 4 attacks they look cool doin damage i dont want to worry about if this dumb char is gettin tired for doin much damage.

Changes occur when something is totally off balance, i dont see why a troll doin 300dam a round was that. Hes meant to hit hard. He cant kill stuff a cleric/bk could. We cant solo squat on the big stuff. While on the old mud before merge we could even solo astral prince,slaug,sutek,etc if u were smart enough and had a good tactic and not a straight warrior. We cant do that here. And yet we are kept getting weaker and weaker. Sure... troll could have 3000hps... so? some mobs got 20k hps and do more his damage, they cant kill em. Sure a mage has 1600 mana.. so? most big mobs are sancted and immune to firestorm, they cant be killed. So I just dont see why making chars weaker helps us or balances mud . We wont be able to kill much stuff if the only way to balance it is downgrades and those keep happening. Gettin to 200 mil exp to have a silly char that cant even exp on his own in the long run its not worth by a longshot. I didnt expect to get all mighty but one thing I relied on was damage count. I spend hours trying to max my damroll equip to perfection and thanks to that quest,help, play, experiment, explore cause i felt strong. Now with 33 less aplied damage and reduction on attacks i dont feel too safe. and its not fair.

Mobs still got 3,4,5,6,7 or 9 attacks and keep doin same damage and procedures as they were created to. We players do now damage as if we had 1 attack taken away from us, maybe more.

Also think of new players. You think doin barely slashes, hards while getting skills up would be nice to see. Or trying a shaman/ranger class gettin such low damage that its better just to get a troll warrior or a gnome mage? Is the solution also to weak soul strikes? that will just piss off the rest of the unaffected part of mud from this changes. Or better said it will piss me off, I cant speak for rest of people.

All this in my humble but strong opinion and will all due respect.


Last edited by Torak on Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:24:18am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: i agree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:38:32pm 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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Quote:
Third attack takes a lot of pracs to get. If the dmg is effectively reduced by 1/3 how about reducing the required pracs by the same.

A warrior has to get sweep, (usually) pierce, third, and draw for a skill that does 2/3 the dmg of combat, which is given to new chars for free these days.

Haven't tested like Torak but I can't say i'm a fan of this "enhancenement" in the least.
This skills cost a lot of practs and to do such lower performance
Also new skills are put into game so its not like a warrior can pract much skills with such low pract gaining


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 Post subject: Re: i agree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:48:19am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Third attack takes a lot of pracs to get. If the dmg is effectively reduced by 1/3 how about reducing the required pracs by the same.

A warrior has to get sweep, (usually) pierce, third, and draw for a skill that does 2/3 the dmg of combat, which is given to new chars for free these days.

Haven't tested like Torak but I can't say i'm a fan of this "enhancenement" in the least.
This skills cost a lot of practs and to do such lower performance
Also new skills are put into game so its not like a warrior can pract much skills with such low pract gaining
Warrior skills takes a lot because warriors are dumb and their skills don't consume anything but time. The skills are fine, if I made them cheaper then warriors would have extra pracs which they'd use to exercises which would skew the game in another direction. Either way, +damage modifiers have never counted for the full value of the +damage modifier as I've seen a note in the code fomr some immortal (possibly Milton) where he already reduced it's efficacy. As for the weakening of half breed classes, well that seems fair to me, a half breed class can fire off lightning bolts or other spells while performing attacks. This was probably something needed to bring halfbreed classes into line a bit also.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:46:27am 
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:12:10pm
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Torak,

Just a note.

Since most mobs are warriors and have no 2nd class, they should still smack the sh!t out of us while all non-pure combat oriented types will hit like little girls instead of trained warriors (2nd class or not, they're trained (as you've tested)).

As I said, I haven't thoroughly tested this stuff. I do find one part of this change hard. To have people pour entirely too many hours into chars to have them downsized annoys me personally as I (and others) made these chars based on a system that, at the whim of one imm, can be changed at any given time. That's Blob's perogative - he is the only one doing the real work, but it's frustrating to no end as a player who likes to build up chars and make neat mixtures only to find their original build idea (and a 100mil char) tweaked/nerfed while mobs still seem as powerful as ever.

I guess i'll find out the real affects when I have the time and motivation to play more but on the surface, seems i'm not going to enjoy playing my necro/pally, necro/warrior or cleric/bk if they hit less hard than they did in the past ... and knowing my pure class warrior (my other choice of chars to play) is dwarfed by ones that didn't reimburse makes him less fun (knowing he is inferior) too. But that's a different rant.

Good luck to you Torak, may you hit harder than very hard (which frightens me as my goodly chars hit v-hard prior to this change from time to time! Will they scratch now?)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:35:37am 
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I do find one part of this change hard. To have people pour entirely too many hours into chars to have them downsized annoys me personally as I (and others) made these chars based on a system that, at the whim of one imm, can be changed at any given time. That's Blob's perogative - he is the only one doing the real work, but it's frustrating to no end as a player who likes to build up chars and make neat mixtures only to find their original build idea (and a 100mil char) tweaked/nerfed while mobs still seem as powerful as ever.
Oh God, suck it up, the game is not about catering to individual fantasies, it's about trying to strike balance for everyone's fantasies. Ultimately when balance is acheived there will be many more neat mixtures thn the slew of characters that all follow the most uber combination that unimaginative players can clone. If you really cared about making interesting mixtures and not protecting your self worth, I'd never hear complaints about changes that move towards better balance.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:23:43am 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I do find one part of this change hard. To have people pour entirely too many hours into chars to have them downsized annoys me personally as I (and others) made these chars based on a system that, at the whim of one imm, can be changed at any given time. That's Blob's perogative - he is the only one doing the real work, but it's frustrating to no end as a player who likes to build up chars and make neat mixtures only to find their original build idea (and a 100mil char) tweaked/nerfed while mobs still seem as powerful as ever.
Oh God, suck it up, the game is not about catering to individual fantasies, it's about trying to strike balance for everyone's fantasies. Ultimately when balance is acheived there will be many more neat mixtures thn the slew of characters that all follow the most uber combination that unimaginative players can clone. If you really cared about making interesting mixtures and not protecting your self worth, I'd never hear complaints about changes that move towards better balance.
Exactly we dont complain when we think it was necesary or for the greater good. Or we complain some but then understand why it was done. I can see the why in this recent change decition but im not sure its the best for mixture of classes imho. Like grael points out they hit a lot less and mobs still are stronger.

Ill try to give more posible solutions or ideas and not just complain about it so here it goes:

Rrok tested melee damage and it was reduced on him by 30% effective. That is the result of the tweak on damage applying and the second and third penalty. Now I agree with your logic behind second and third tweak and i would accept it if it wasnt for the fact that damage went down too.

Also take under consideration the random factor on attacks and damage.
Before changes and im not entirely sure of it but, attacks of a pure war could random between 60-90hp dam meaning he could either gelatinize,pulverize or obliterate even annihilate. It had a wide range of randomness to prevent maximum damage on each hit. Now with changes the spectrum is still the same but diminishes some.

Taking the Rrok example he now hits about 60hp dam a round instead of 90hp dam in average while someone stunned. But that 60 is the max, he can go down some more cause of randomness probably. I agree 350 hp dam a round while mob was stunned was too much since skills werent costing warriors movement or anything. So my posible solutions to stabilize this for rest of affected classes is this:

1.- Give damage a bit more 30% effective cmbined penalty seems bit high. more like 20% or 15% penalty i think folks would consider that fair.

2.- Leave penalties of second and third (im not arguing those)

3.- Reduce pure war bonus to 10% and penalty to minors to -10%on combats,stealth,woodcraft. Or just reduce pure war bonus to +10% and leave minor at -15%.

4.- Instead of second attack and third ruling the damage they do, make it on firing chance and hitroll and convert bludgeon,slash,pierce in the ruling damage factor on attacks. Why i say this u could ask. Well you say in your changes now they can focus more on natural ability. Thiefs, rangers natural ability should be based on str/dex combo (pierce) not on str/con which is more warrior like and bludgeon and slash have it. That would be more fair to all classes dependant on combat skills and wouldnt be off the charts or anything. Because it would focus on their natural ability to do damage in weapon specialization. I do more damage if i know how to use certain type of weapon better each day not on how many attacks i can do with it, but how i use it. Saying that using slash or pierce should allow me to hit harder. Not second attack and third.

5.-Second,third and dual already got penalties so change #4 would balance out.

Not all can be changed i guess so i would ask plz consider at least #1 and #4 if we cant have it all. Or combine what you see fit.

Thats its ... for now hehe.

Torak


Last edited by Torak on Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:39:09am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Dual wield and second,third
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:25:23am 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
Posts: 101
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Dual wield restored to be ok
Second and third penalties are ok
im just arguing damage and what i said on the post before this


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:34:40am 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
Posts: 101
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Quote:
Torak,

Just a note.

Since most mobs are warriors and have no 2nd class, they should still smack the sh!t out of us while all non-pure combat oriented types will hit like little girls instead of trained warriors (2nd class or not, they're trained (as you've tested)).

As I said, I haven't thoroughly tested this stuff. I do find one part of this change hard. To have people pour entirely too many hours into chars to have them downsized annoys me personally as I (and others) made these chars based on a system that, at the whim of one imm, can be changed at any given time. That's Blob's perogative - he is the only one doing the real work, but it's frustrating to no end as a player who likes to build up chars and make neat mixtures only to find their original build idea (and a 100mil char) tweaked/nerfed while mobs still seem as powerful as ever.

I guess i'll find out the real affects when I have the time and motivation to play more but on the surface, seems i'm not going to enjoy playing my necro/pally, necro/warrior or cleric/bk if they hit less hard than they did in the past ... and knowing my pure class warrior (my other choice of chars to play) is dwarfed by ones that didn't reimburse makes him less fun (knowing he is inferior) too. But that's a different rant.

Good luck to you Torak, may you hit harder than very hard (which frightens me as my goodly chars hit v-hard prior to this change from time to time! Will they scratch now?)
I understand man and i know classes with a minor on combat are weakened. For example lichers, fists of fury guys, maybe even clerics/bks they still got spells but it was balanced in my opinion on race they choose, equip they had to combine, no bonus to spells. They hit so so before now so so less. Its not that bad now that dual wield is ok but still i argue about the damage reduction. I think its silly to get a 1damroll eq and seeing it do in reality .7 damroll. That my main complain.


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 Post subject: Im a pain in the butt hehe
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:42:08am 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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Good timing for me to return and be a pain in the butt uh Blobbie hehe :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:30:53pm 
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:12:10pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I do find one part of this change hard. To have people pour entirely too many hours into chars to have them downsized annoys me personally as I (and others) made these chars based on a system that, at the whim of one imm, can be changed at any given time. That's Blob's perogative - he is the only one doing the real work, but it's frustrating to no end as a player who likes to build up chars and make neat mixtures only to find their original build idea (and a 100mil char) tweaked/nerfed while mobs still seem as powerful as ever.
Oh God, suck it up, the game is not about catering to individual fantasies, it's about trying to strike balance for everyone's fantasies. Ultimately when balance is acheived there will be many more neat mixtures thn the slew of characters that all follow the most uber combination that unimaginative players can clone. If you really cared about making interesting mixtures and not protecting your self worth, I'd never hear complaints about changes that move towards better balance.
As Torak has mentioned, balance in this context means downsizing those you view as too powerful instead of upsizing the weaker things. Why does it have to be this uni-directional downsize most every time instead of making the classes/builds perceived to be at a disadvantage stronger? And, I thought that, like races, there is not supposed to be complete balance - that's what makes each char unique. If in the next 6 months, the mud is proliferated with mages (or shamans or thieves), and they become, by perception, the strongest class - does this mean they're next in line to be downsized?

By lowering the capabilities of classes you get complaints as those using those classes/builds put work and planning into using that class for a reason. By strengthening the 'weaker' classes there would be more use of those classes, and since they're so rarely used, the only feed back that would come out of it is "wow - my ranger rocks now!" or "fantastic - the shaman is a great class to play!" instead of the whining, bitching and complaining received when someone has something and its taken away in the name of balance.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:19:31pm 
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As Torak has mentioned, balance in this context means downsizing those you view as too powerful instead of upsizing the weaker things. Why does it have to be this uni-directional downsize most every time instead of making the classes/builds perceived to be at a disadvantage stronger?
The balancing usually and almost always will focus on downsizing the powerful, to go in the other direction would result in 2 round battles unless I modify hps/mana/movement. I do NOT want 2 round battles, and I do not want to have to deal with permanent changes to pfiles unless absolutely necessary. Thus we are left with diminishing what is too powerful.
Quote:
And, I thought that, like races, there is not supposed to be complete balance - that's what makes each char unique. If in the next 6 months, the mud is proliferated with mages (or shamans or thieves), and they become, by perception, the strongest class - does this mean they're next in line to be downsized?
There is a breaking point where the quality of the game is affected when there is too great of a skew. Additionally, I use that argument usually when players are asking for increases :lol:
Quote:
By lowering the capabilities of classes you get complaints as those using those classes/builds put work and planning into using that class for a reason. By strengthening the 'weaker' classes there would be more use of those classes, and since they're so rarely used, the only feed back that would come out of it is "wow - my ranger rocks now!" or "fantastic - the shaman is a great class to play!" instead of the whining, bitching and complaining received when someone has something and its taken away in the name of balance.
Ahh therein lies your answer. By reducing things and pissing off players I get feedback, some constructive some whiney, but I sure do get lots of feedback. By increasing things, I almost never hear a murmer except a thanks, which sometimes seems too thankful :mrgreen:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:20:51pm 
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1.- Give damage a bit more 30% effective cmbined penalty seems bit high. more like 20% or 15% penalty i think folks would consider that fair.

2.- Leave penalties of second and third (im not arguing those)

3.- Reduce pure war bonus to 10% and penalty to minors to -10%on combats,stealth,woodcraft. Or just reduce pure war bonus to +10% and leave minor at -15%.

4.- Instead of second attack and third ruling the damage they do, make it on firing chance and hitroll and convert bludgeon,slash,pierce in the ruling damage factor on attacks. Why i say this u could ask. Well you say in your changes now they can focus more on natural ability. Thiefs, rangers natural ability should be based on str/dex combo (pierce) not on str/con which is more warrior like and bludgeon and slash have it. That would be more fair to all classes dependant on combat skills and wouldnt be off the charts or anything. Because it would focus on their natural ability to do damage in weapon specialization. I do more damage if i know how to use certain type of weapon better each day not on how many attacks i can do with it, but how i use it. Saying that using slash or pierce should allow me to hit harder. Not second attack and third.

5.-Second,third and dual already got penalties so change #4 would balance out.

Not all can be changed i guess so i would ask plz consider at least #1 and #4 if we cant have it all. Or combine what you see fit.
I will give your suggestion some extra thought. I do generally prefer constructive whining :lol:


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 Post subject: about suggestion #4
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:35:56pm 
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:25:05pm
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Elaborating more on this. Having slash, bludgeon,pierce to determine how hard u hit would be ok cause warriors would depend on str ruling the quality of the skill. Would be same for second attack since trolls got 71 71 so average is still 71. Third is the tricky one cause it also depends on dex and could be a bit more powerful, but since damage is down and a 35% penalty who knows, maybe not such a bit dif. First attack remains same and dual wield also has same deal as third and then could be implemented a penalty if its too good. Since right now dual wield is fine.
For rangers,thiefs would help on second attack since thats the one they use, it would increase a bit and dual would be ok since they use high dex and a good combo of str,con. Maybe would hit a bit harder but dunno how much. Depends on characters i guess and stats. And still the stats that rule the skills would have a deal in qualities so they wouldnt be increased.


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