It just strike me that thief class is kindda funny. Thiefs/assassins,etc are supposed to be more coordinated,fast,stealthy,evasive than a warrior and yet on their prime skills they get same postlag as warriors. Maybe reduction of 1 round of lag to thief skills to boost the class. Stab instead of been 3/4 to 2/3 , slit 3/4 to 2/3, etc depending on base stats of course, some thiefs low level cause of dex get like 5 or 6 rounds of lag thats not good. Thiefs have to balance 3 stats to to get most skills ok, Warriors with str and con are doin great. And combined with an int or wis class thiefs get it hard to level. And it would be ok if in the end thief did a lot of damage with his skills but I dont see a high level thief beatin up a warrior or a cleric unless using tons of tricks and cheesey techniques like stab flee. Also the 1/4 chance of twin is very low cause it extends to 16 without one. I tested it and i know 1/4 supposed to flash one but that dont happen. And the damage cap might be high but its not even doin half of that. Still warrior hb seems like the better way to go since you can use it from back rows and backstab puts you in front of battle.
just my thoughts

Maybe backstab could be made as headbutt, usable from back rows. For example havin 1 corpse upfront distracting the mob then from row 2 stab mob and engage in combat. That doesnt sound so crazy if you think about fighting logics. I rarely use backstab to fight big mobs or get exp. I use it to get corpses or kill small mobs. Engaging in full combat with big SH mobs or Savaena or Angrorn or Fal Darak could get my level 75 thief killeed in a hurry. just a thought

Headbutt isn't supposed to be usable from back rows. Ground smash is, but not headbutt. Either way, thieves do not equal warriors and vice versa. I will look into twin stab to see how it is working out.

Maybe I didnt explain myself . Headbutt can be used once from back rows to avoid been the tank.example

group corpse
row 2
group
<row1> an animated corpse
<row2> Armand

order corpse kill butcher

An animates corpse misses his hit.

You move up to engage you enemy
You headbutt the butcher right on his butt.

the animated corpse misses the butcher with his hit.
You massacre the butcher with your slash.

Then butcher will target first attacker, that will be corpse, not Armand.
Of course mob will move around and switch but firs couple of rounds are safe for Armand.

I was saying backstab could have same usage, and been used in a person thats already fighting either a corpse, a player, mob ,etc. For 1 time not a spam stab from row 2. Just once and skill will move you to row 1 and continue battle normally. But you could use backstab to open your attack as thief after an animate or tank starts fighting and not like it is right now that you must tank if you wanna backstab or cant do it if the mob is already fighting.

Could be something like

group
<row 1> Juggernaut
<row 2> Armand (in the hypotetical case I had backstab)

Juggernaut knocks the butcher right on his butt!.

You move up to engage you enemy.
You place the long bronze tipped spear in the butchers back.

Then fight continues normally as it does now.

Ohhhhhhh... in that case, absolutely not.

hehe why not?
If you are concerned about thief making big damage i think it will balance itself. Thief-combined with other class doesnt have powerful backstab as a pure thief neither hits that as hard. And pure thiefs wouldnt be abusing this cause they got no followers, but thiefs could be an asset to groups not just a burden.
And that could help the class use its singular skills more than acting warriorish using headbutt after ordering corpses, or followers or conjures kill a mob. Or just typing assist or kill cause you cant use you primary skill when fight began.

Headbutt and stab if you wanna compare em can do about same damage if the mob is stunned 3 to 4 rounds minimum and warrior has great damage and 4 attacks, the differece is how that damage is seen. Either on 1 blow to the back with 3 to 4 rounds of lag or in 3 to 4 rounds spread in many attacks. Thiefs wouldnt be as powerful as warriors and like I said for many things such as damage count, number of attacks and skills, but could be able to use that particular attack in groups, been a good asset to the gang, not just someone who gouges extremely hard or thrashes which is less than kick.

If backstab/twin is the best skill of a thief and they cant pretty much use it on the practical mud world unless they got no option like pure thiefs. Why cant it be more fair compared to other classes who can use their skills/spells that way. I wouldnt mind a slight reduction on stab/twin combined power if that whats the biggest concern to make the class more thief-skill active.

A mob that is standing still can be BS'd b/c it's not expecting anything.

A mob that is being beat on by another player, although aware of his surroundings, is most certainly distracted and seemingly susceptible to a BS.

Allowing the single shot after combat is initiated seems doable. What reprecussions ya worried about w/ this Blobbie? I can think of some things that may (would) get exploited - is that the problem?

My dislike is that it changes backstab to something not very sneaky. I would rather introduce an entirely new skill than fudge the backstab skill into an unintended use. I know man places have circle, and I'm sure we can think of something nice for thieves. But messing with backstab isn't the answer, at least not one I'm willing to support

How about thrash? Any enhancing that can be done there? Or is it pretty good already? (I rarely used it premerge w/ my thief)

It could be like Blobbie says, a new skill or an improvment on a current one like Grael says. If you want ideas I got some.

Skill paralize touch . Doin a swift stroke to the nerves in his back spine ,freeze the mob for 2 round or 3 even if u hittin him.Causing pain on him of about 70 hps dam.

Skill Swift knock. Knocking the mob uncouncious for some seconds with a swift hit to the neck, lying on the floor, not engaged in combat, so you can maximize the backstab damage since mob is helpless. Skill would do 40 hp damage and cannot be used more than once every 5 ticks to avoid abusing.

Skill rip guts. During fight if dualing a dagger and primary too ,make a quick movement cut in shape of an X in the enemies gut causing lots of pain and leavin you wide open for 1 round that u cant attack back. and 3 rounds of lag if good dex,str,etc . And causing 200hp dam if max.

Thieves already received gouge and slit as new skills. Some classes are yet to see a new skill (Shaman, Druid (got heal, but its not new)). I say just tweak thrash as it's already there.

I know Torak may disagree, but thieves are powerful. Tuor kills things solo, toe to toe, that most chars wouldn't even consider attempting. Adding more firepower to a stealth/shadows char doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Thieves are not intended to be an offensive force. Pallys, BKs and Warriors are the hand to hand experts - thieves are meant to rely on their agility and smarts to outwit an opponent, not destroy them w/ firepower. Just b/c BS can't be used in combat doesn't necessitate the addition of skills that knock mobs out (if u want that pick an appropriate subclass) or makes them bleed out more (slit does this to a degree already and adding more ... why?). Heck, thrash was supposed to give a chance to knock opponents out I thought ..

(I use Tuor as an example as he's a living legend stealth type and those who have watched him in combat know he rocks mob's worlds).

[quote="Grael"]
Thieves are not intended to be an offensive force. Pallys, BKs and Warriors are the hand to hand experts - thieves are meant to rely on their agility and smarts to outwit an opponent, not destroy them w/ firepower. Just b/c BS can't be used in combat doesn't necessitate the addition of skills that knock mobs out (if u want that pick an appropriate subclass) or makes them bleed out more (slit does this to a degree already and adding more ... why?). Heck, thrash was supposed to give a chance to knock opponents out I thought ..

quote]

Maybe they arent supposed to be offensive but thats how they work. Offensivly, slit,gouge,backstab even if stealthy are offensive and put you in the front line of battle. Thrash did stun mobs in the past but people abused it or was buggy cause u could knock mobs till they died without getting hurt, now u only do a little side stab. I know some classes need more work atm but im just trying to express my concerns since i use the only thief around. Rest are low level or away and dont care for it. I like playing different chars but that doesnt mean they are perfect. Sometimes it just takes confidence to kill some mobs, if i had 1 or 2 of your chars i could kill Tuor in many different ways hehe.

As I see it, I don't think the thief needs an extra skill to use offensively. Kick, thrash, gouge are already there. I haven't had the opportunity to use gouge yet, and in all honesty, I probably wouldn't use it much anyways.

I have enough trouble with headbutting mobs that I don't even get back up when I come to. Seems like they never miss otherwise, and with my thief I can't afford to be out for half the fight with the few hp I do have. I'd just end up as flat as a board for having tried to use anything at all.

I've heard people saying headbutt was tweaked up some. Well, I can't find any other way to work around that skill. Parry and evade haven't helped at all. There seems to be no way to get out of the way. Heh, that's my major concern about thieves..

Hmmm that gives me an idea. Maybe evade should allow evading special attacks while engaged in combat, rather than only working while not engaged in combat. Something for me to think about.

Sounds fair, if changes to fight or new skills not the way maybe that could work.